Why Ancient was transferred from Admin to Member

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Why Ancient was transferred from Admin to Member

Post by neondragon on Thu Sep 23, 2010 3:48 pm

Hi,

As you'll probably know, Ancient was recently transferred from being an admin to being a member.

I made the decision to do this based on a combination of reasons that became apparent to me over a long period of time. I'm sure that every admin and member is appreciative of the work that Ancient has done to help us, and this wasn't a decision made for personal reasons -- it was a decision made with the intention of improving the admin team.

Numerous different people have complained to me about Ancient during the time he has been an admin. The complaints are mostly to do with way he seems to handle disputes, that sometimes he can be agressive and a little immature about it. I don't want representatives of our community to be giving that kind of impression to people, and the number of seperate people making those kinds of observations apparent started to worried me.

His attitude in meetings has seemed to be too agressive too... we have reached decisions, where most of our admins have been present and we have all voted on a matter, but then Ancient doesn't seem to want to accept the vote and continues arguing his point. Once we have all had a chance to offer our opinions to each other, and then completed a vote, I consider that the decision is made and that unless there is new information to add that the matter is closed. However, I have witnessed a few times Ancient continuing to argue his point and not respecting the group's decision. With one matter in partular, he seemed to be way too 'involved' and personal in it, arguing after we had made the decision that we'd pretty much chosen the worst thing ever, but without having declared a personal interest in the topic being discussed. Those kinds of things unsettle me about the decision making process being employed, and make it more difficult for the team to reach decisions and stand behind them.

The catalyst for Ancient's demotion was when I was present in a meeting we had, related to me issuing Kami a 3rd strike due to him 'trolling' on one of our servers. Kami has had a history of doing things like this, and trying to cause problems or annoy people, and so I didn't have much sympathy when I saw what he was doing and refused to stop doing. However, although I followed procedure and added that incident to the strike list with a description of what I saw happen, I had not also provided logs or screenshots and this is something that caused Ancient and another admin to decide to remove the strike I had issued. After the admin meeting that we all had earlier (You can view the outcome of this meeting in a seperate thread in the News section), I believe that we have made it so that this kind of confusion won't be repeated, due to the decision to create an admin guide with details of what the procedure ought to be in these kinds of situations. However, I was not expecting what happened next... in the meeting that we had in order to talk about each other's actions, Ancient seemed to be convinced that I had made the decision due to the gender of the recepiant of most of Kami's trolling, and that fact that she was a friend. Now, I am not impressed by my impartiality being doubted -- but fair enough, if Ancient had valid concerns, I don't mind him asking me about them so that I can give him an answer that clarifies my position. The problem is, he did not accept my answer. He continued pressing the point, that he knew that I had made a decision due to personal reasons that I would not have made had I seen the same kind of thing happening to somebody else, and that he just wanted me to admit it. These accusations went on for quite a while, and although I tried to give straight answers and be as clear as I could be that that was NOT the case, he just seemed to not want to accept that at all and continued pressing the point in ways such as "just admit that you did what you did because she's a girl and you wouldn't have done it otherwise. I've got news for you, girls are just the same people as guys" -- This is not an extract of exactly what Ancient was saying to me, but it was, from memory, the kind of thing he was saying to me. I was not impressed with this for a number of reasons. First, I don't think that this is how the admin team ought to be operating. We have to be able to trust each other. At the point that we have a concrete reason to not trust one of our fellow admins, such as we discovered that they had purposefully lied about something, or falsified evidence, or done anything at all that would purposefully undermine our decision making process, then at that point we can't believe what that admin says and they become unfit to continue being an admin. But NOT before this point. Secondly, while steering this community, since when I first saw the kind of attention female players can get -- at the best of times, unwanted attention from people who stop when they are told to, and at the worst of times, just straight sexual harassment -- I have been adamant that we shall have a place where we do what we can to try and minimise these kinds of problems, and to try to make playing here as hassle free for female players as it is for our many male players. I want this very much, because I want to create balance, and fairness. So, being relentlessly accused of actually being biased myself when it comes to admin decisions that happen to include a gender element, I found to be quite insulting to the fairness and balance that I have been trying to achieve.

At this point, although I thought of Ancient's behavour to be unacceptable to the admin team structure, I wanted to give him the benefit of the doubt. We hadn't yet decided to make a post for admins detailing their expected behavour and responsibilities. So, I thought that ok, maybe he's just not sure about what is expected; perhaps if I try to talk to him, I can tell him how I feel about his style of arguing his point and the way he evaluates information, and we might be able to come to an agreement where he can come to trust me and all of our admins, to argue fairly and non-agressively, and to respect our decisions when they have been made. I was already unsure that he would accept my advice on this matter, due to his insistance to ignore my point of view in the previous meeting and to press his own agenda. I was considering that it was worth a try. The final straw for me was the news from another admin that they had already spoken to Ancient before the meeting happened, and discussed with him other points of view that he ought to consider. Then, in the meeting, this advice appeared to have gone out of the window, with Ancient just pushing his own agenda instead.

It was at this point that I decided that Ancient was perhaps not the best fit in the kind of admin team and community that I am trying to have. I did not want to publically state to everyone that I think that Ancient has flaws that conflicted with his position here, because I respect all the work he has put in to help us, and I do believe that he does actually want what is best for the community. I did not really want to make him look bad, and so I was not very verbose in my explanation for why he had been demoted. I understand now that this served to create a void that was filled with rumour and assumptions -- often the worst kind. It was simply the case that his personality caused a problem that I couldn't see a resolution for. The decision itself was nothing personal. However, now that this information has been requested, here it is and I hope that this post goes some way towards explaining how I came to make this decision. I apologise for not being able to list absolutely all of the information I used to come to this decision, but I'm sure you can understand that some things have been told to me in confidence.

Thanks everyone,
neonDragon

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Re: Why Ancient was transferred from Admin to Member

Post by W_a_S_y_L on Thu Sep 23, 2010 3:52 pm

Thanks for finnaly making things clear.

I knew you had your reasons for this, and it must have been a little tough for you to reassign such a great admin
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Re: Why Ancient was transferred from Admin to Member

Post by hazik666 on Thu Sep 23, 2010 3:57 pm

So long story short, He got kicked out for disagreeing with you? The fact that you treat girls better than boys is true and I even have a chat we had a while ago about that and the pic kinda proves that you do give girls better than boys. If you havent realised mabye he argues for the benefit of the server, I argueed for a Base Builder team it was pushed aside so I tried more then I gave up because the admins rejected it every time but now there is one (just a point). So Ancient has been kicked from the admin team for being nothing but helpful to the servers, until you post theese complaints im believing nothing, because everything your posting here just seems just to be against Ancient and untrue. Also you have had about 100 complaints koyumu has had lots and other admins have had some never seen them get kicked.


Last edited by hazik666 on Thu Sep 23, 2010 4:10 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Why Ancient was transferred from Admin to Member

Post by Ancient on Thu Sep 23, 2010 4:04 pm

You accuse me that I had several complaints when I was recruited as an admin. Then let me ask you one thing before I leave this issue.

Why, in the almost 4 months that I have been an admin, haven't you contacted me at all. If it was so serious that I had major complaints from people then why didn't you contact me. Or even better : Contact me before you kicked me from the team. You push your problems elsewhere so you don't have to deal with them which is in my opinion really obtuse. I have never met a person like you that has a lack of social competence and knowledge about how the human minds work.

Untill you prove me the several complaints, I will not accept this as a final reason.


Edit : Can every person that reads my comment if you agree with me. I sometimes get the feeling that I am doing the wrong things and I would like if people can say what they think about this.

Feedbacks @ this topic please!
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Re: Why Ancient was transferred from Admin to Member

Post by kami (GER] on Thu Sep 23, 2010 4:56 pm

i am a troll on the servers? guy if u cant remember, then i will tell u: i was a member of the jail team and was the best member u had back then for this team. after i did think about my life and decided to leave the nD team i got my powers removed. i did join the server and play without powers and u was there too a day after. when there was trouble like massfk + teamkill and all did ask u to help us and do ur job u didnt give a fuck and just kicked me and hibari for trying to fix the massfk by teamkilling the guy.
then i left nD for over 3-4month and came back, luckily not banned. after a harder start to come back in (cause people still thought bad about me, for the reason that i did make some topics on the forums...blabla). i did ask several times if its possible to join the team again but always got declined. so i worked like a moderator again and did screen and record every rulebreaker on u servers. i did many reports anddid help the members and regulars out in many situations. now when i did spend so much energy and time for the comunity again and my last application got declined like i am a noname i just break down my thought to help anymore. when i now come to the server i did just tell a member to watch someone or did nothing at all..
when i was "harrasing" anybody then it was against rulebreakers... (retard is no harrasment at all its thesame like u call somebody idiot..)
then the last situation with sarah: i did never hear her voice before that with a clear mic. and when she did use the other one it did sound female.. when she did speak now she did sound like a 14years old boy. so i did ask her why this is. (perhaps she did fake to be a girl, not the first time a member fakes something //age, gender// or it was someone else that uses her name)
i did ask her 2 times till she did gave an answere which was just swearing on me for nonesense. then i did ask again cause she just didnt aswere why she sounds like a boy.. // u call this harrasment? well then stay on the servers a whole day.. u will ban 20persons permanent cause they write real harrasment against a commander.
then u perm banned me. u didnt warn me a time for this. and at highest that was worth a kick. + if u have no proofs u cant ban me and write ur dramatic-story... its like someone cuts in his finger with a paper and it didnt even blood and u tell someone that there was a chainsaw that cuts the whole hand off..

ancient is a real good admin. not to say that the others are also good. neon, u just destroyed the community with this shit. hope u see the consequences
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Re: Why Ancient was transferred from Admin to Member

Post by uhu on Thu Sep 23, 2010 5:42 pm

If neonDragon found Ancient rather impulsive why no warns?

Error is part os human life, everyone does it. But forgiving is also a virtue wich has the power to change a mind.

We have to admit Ancient does a great job. Everyone recognises the attention, effort, dedication that he spares wich makes him rare and a must-have.

Ancient would go softer if he had been advised of his mistakes. Why let go someone which is hard to find and hard to replace when there is a simple solution. Forgiveness.

A second chance is not a hard outcome if you think about it. Ancient is able to change, neonDragon is probably able to forgive; and Ancient's presence is now like a missing strong and strategically placed pillar essencial to the building giving emphasis to the need of the second chance.
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Re: Why Ancient was transferred from Admin to Member

Post by Arnold Schwarzenegger on Fri Sep 24, 2010 1:27 am

Ancient wrote:You accuse me that I had several complaints when I was recruited as an admin. Then let me ask you one thing before I leave this issue.

Why, in the almost 4 months that I have been an admin, haven't you contacted me at all. If it was so serious that I had major complaints from people then why didn't you contact me. Or even better : Contact me before you kicked me from the team. You push your problems elsewhere so you don't have to deal with them which is in my opinion really obtuse. I have never met a person like you that has a lack of social competence and knowledge about how the human minds work.

Untill you prove me the several complaints, I will not accept this as a final reason.


Edit : Can every person that reads my comment if you agree with me. I sometimes get the feeling that I am doing the wrong things and I would like if people can say what they think about this.

Feedbacks @ this topic please!

So long story short, He got kicked out for disagreeing with you? The fact that you treat girls better than boys is true and I even have a chat we had a while ago about that and the pic kinda proves that you do give girls better than boys. If you havent realised mabye he argues for the benefit of the server, I argueed for a Base Builder team it was pushed aside so I tried more then I gave up because the admins rejected it every time but now there is one (just a point). So Ancient has been kicked from the admin team for being nothing but helpful to the servers, until you post theese complaints im believing nothing, because everything your posting here just seems just to be against Ancient and untrue. Also you have had about 100 complaints koyumu has had lots and other admins have had some never seen them get kicked.

I fully agree with d4z0 and Ancient. You are just an abusing headadmin
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Re: Why Ancient was transferred from Admin to Member

Post by KoD on Fri Sep 24, 2010 2:01 am

Arnold Schwarzenegger wrote:
Ancient wrote:You accuse me that I had several complaints when I was recruited as an admin. Then let me ask you one thing before I leave this issue.

Why, in the almost 4 months that I have been an admin, haven't you contacted me at all. If it was so serious that I had major complaints from people then why didn't you contact me. Or even better : Contact me before you kicked me from the team. You push your problems elsewhere so you don't have to deal with them which is in my opinion really obtuse. I have never met a person like you that has a lack of social competence and knowledge about how the human minds work.

Untill you prove me the several complaints, I will not accept this as a final reason.


Edit : Can every person that reads my comment if you agree with me. I sometimes get the feeling that I am doing the wrong things and I would like if people can say what they think about this.

Feedbacks @ this topic please!

So long story short, He got kicked out for disagreeing with you? The fact that you treat girls better than boys is true and I even have a chat we had a while ago about that and the pic kinda proves that you do give girls better than boys. If you havent realised mabye he argues for the benefit of the server, I argueed for a Base Builder team it was pushed aside so I tried more then I gave up because the admins rejected it every time but now there is one (just a point). So Ancient has been kicked from the admin team for being nothing but helpful to the servers, until you post theese complaints im believing nothing, because everything your posting here just seems just to be against Ancient and untrue. Also you have had about 100 complaints koyumu has had lots and other admins have had some never seen them get kicked.

I fully agree with d4z0 and Ancient. You are just an abusing headadmin

we know that you agree on them.
Now all stop trolling X_x'. 'know you guys are angry/mad but saying everything 100 times won't make you come any futher
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Re: Why Ancient was transferred from Admin to Member

Post by Frenchpoodle on Fri Sep 24, 2010 7:04 am

Thanks for the well written statement.
Ill keep my personal views on this matter to myself as i don't want to feed trolls on this topic or add "fuel to the fire". Its not worth it, its a game.


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Re: Why Ancient was transferred from Admin to Member

Post by Fagnatic on Fri Sep 24, 2010 8:50 am

I agree on the fact that you guys give special threatment to people with another gender though..
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Re: Why Ancient was transferred from Admin to Member

Post by xelef on Fri Sep 24, 2010 8:54 am

Well fagnatic, Why go in general and stating that girls have higher succes chance to get further in the nD Team than males does?
Because so far i can tell sarah had been here a few months and got accepted on her application, now if you look at her application you see that most of the people who responded where positive and pros in her favor.
And luna is doing her duty with moderating the servers.
Kleines is also a good moderator
Suvi i dont know anything about because as many said she is active at night like a night stalker, so unless you have facts that they got picked based on gender i think that saying that would be useless.
Just my opinion.
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Re: Why Ancient was transferred from Admin to Member

Post by Mizurri on Fri Sep 24, 2010 8:59 am

xelef wrote:Well fagnatic, Why go in general and stating that girls have higher succes chance to get further in the nD Team than males does?
Because so far i can tell sarah had been here a few months and got accepted on her application, now if you look at her application you see that most of the people who responded where positive and pros in her favor.
And luna is doing her duty with moderating the servers.
Kleines is also a good moderator
Suvi i dont know anything about because as many said she is active at night like a night stalker, so unless you have facts that they got picked based on gender i think that saying that would be useless.
Just my opinion.

To be exactly i never saw sarah that much, But cant blame her tho;p never have been that much active on jail on the time that she was regular, But for more example i think you could take Drasitic ( for the people that remember her )

But thats really the only one i can think of that COULD be,
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Re: Why Ancient was transferred from Admin to Member

Post by DarkNess on Fri Sep 24, 2010 9:01 am

Mizurri wrote:
xelef wrote:Well fagnatic, Why go in general and stating that girls have higher succes chance to get further in the nD Team than males does?
Because so far i can tell sarah had been here a few months and got accepted on her application, now if you look at her application you see that most of the people who responded where positive and pros in her favor.
And luna is doing her duty with moderating the servers.
Kleines is also a good moderator
Suvi i dont know anything about because as many said she is active at night like a night stalker, so unless you have facts that they got picked based on gender i think that saying that would be useless.
Just my opinion.

To be exactly i never saw sarah that much, But cant blame her tho;p never have been that much active on jail on the time that she was regular, But for more example i think you could take Drasitic ( for the people that remember her )

But thats really the only one i can think of that COULD be,

And Jessy xD
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Re: Why Ancient was transferred from Admin to Member

Post by Spx. on Fri Sep 24, 2010 9:18 am

Thanks for informing us, it stays sad that Ancient got removed from the admin team, as it would've probably been better to talk with him. You probably got other reasons aswell and that all together must have brought you to this decision. I don't really agree, but I don't disagree either (meaning: I don't got a full opinion).

Fagnatic wrote:I agree on the fact that you guys give special threatment to people with another gender though..

Do you got any good reasons for that? As far as my memory goes, I haven't really seen any special treatment to females (maybe you do got a example). All the females in the nD* Team are/did a good job and they didn't get into the nD* Team for their gender, but they got accepted on the fact they were member material, just like all the others in the nD* Team.

Drasitic got accepted by then, because a lot of the members agreed back then? Anyways, I'm sure there's (almost) no specialtreatment for females.


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Re: Why Ancient was transferred from Admin to Member

Post by KoD on Fri Sep 24, 2010 9:19 am

I think the reason is that people give more attention to girls, then the girls will be seen faster then guys... You know, minority.

So maybe were all part of this special treatment... We just donĀ“t see it
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Re: Why Ancient was transferred from Admin to Member

Post by xelef on Fri Sep 24, 2010 9:28 am

Well kod, female gamers will always recieve more attention by guys on the internet games of what i experienced, so why not CS, but that does not mean special threatment for accepting them in a cominity based on there gender role, And because the female gamers are a smaller procentage of the overall gamers than guys are then they will properly get noticed faster due to there voice ( If they speak on mic ) Mainly because of the male interrest into the females, so therefor they will automaticly recieve more attention than guys cause they "stand" out of the crowd.
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Re: Why Ancient was transferred from Admin to Member

Post by raz on Fri Sep 24, 2010 9:33 am

OK neon i can understand now and i thank you aswell as respect your dessision. How ever i disagree some but its ok becous as i see your the one having to keep the servers running. aswell as i hope that some time in the future you can give ancient another chase of admin cuz hes hell of a good one. WE have loads of good admins but Ancient whas a big addition to admin team, i must say i made misstakes we all do Ancient did his and i hope in time that will be forgoten.

THank you agin for the info // Raz
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Re: Why Ancient was transferred from Admin to Member

Post by Boyka on Fri Sep 24, 2010 1:48 pm

Damn, i always admired the work of Ancient (and Quicksilver..)
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Re: Why Ancient was transferred from Admin to Member

Post by hazik666 on Fri Sep 24, 2010 4:35 pm

Still waiting on the real story since half of this is bs..

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